TOPOFTHEHILL
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| Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:56 am |
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An interesting result from Woodbine on Sunday in the Grade 2 Dance Smartly stakes over 10 furlongs on Turf. The winner was a filly Mutamakina. She is by Nathaniel ex Joshua’s Princess by Danehill. Well nothing too remarkable until you look at the pedigree in detail. Joshua’s Princess is out of Josh’s Pearl x Sadler’s Wells so Mutamakina is 3x3 to Sadler’s Wells.
Enable was also by Nathaniel and 3x2 to Sadler’s Wells.
I have Enable as one of two stakes winners bred 3x2 to Sadlers’s Wells, the other is moderate listed winner We Are Ninety. I have nearly 40 runners bred on that cross so while the sample is really quite small its probably enough for most commercial breeders to say it is not really working.
The 3x3 cross which is represented by Mutamakina has been tried a lot more but is similarly lacking a high success rate. From nearly 1000 runners there have been 44 stakes winners with 6 winning at G1.
What I would dearly like to do but can’t is compare these with runners by Nathaniel, I am sure his personal data would be very different. So is there something about Nathaniel that over-rides the negative impact of inbreeding to Sadler’s Wells and if there is can we identify it and use it to advantage.
The first place to look is Nathaniels dam Magnificent Style x Silver Hawk ex Mia Karina x Icecpade. Well Silver Hawk is by Roberto (HailTo Reason ex Bramalea). Sadler’s Wells dam is by Bold Reason (Hail To Reason ex Lalun) remember that Nathaniel himself was a Sadler’s X Roberto, could it be that simple? Not a chance! But it’s a start and if nothing else its interesting
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- Villicious»Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:18 am
Quite a lot of Ribot floating around in the mix too. So is it a third line of Hail To Reason that is the key to a Sadlers inbreed? Also digressing slightly, was there ever such a silk purse produced from such sow’s ears as Ridgewood Pearl .list][/list] Reply
- Gone West»Mon Aug 23, 2021 22:16 pm
She is a filly whose grandsire is GALILEO and who's damsire is DANEHILL. Surely that alone is a successful combination with many, many worldwide major Group success ? Reply
- TOPOFTHEHILL»Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:28 am
Well not if her second dam is by Sadler's Wells it would appear that the Galileo x Danehill cross is not strong enough to negate the inbreeding to Sadler's Wells. It has to be a bit more than that. And anyway Nathaniel (if you take out Enable) hasn't been that successful with or without Danehill mares. Reply
- TOPOFTHEHILL»Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:48 am
For good orders sake I checked and Nathaniel has one other stakes winner out of a Danehill mare a G3 winner. He did get a G1 winner out of a Dansili mare. Reply
- Gone West»Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:24 am
Thanks for checking that TOP. I didn't actually mean to include NATHANIEL . The sire of the subject could be any son of GALILEO. What I was wondering was the success of combines granddads GALILEO and DANEHILL. Reply
- TOPOFTHEHILL»Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:20 am
No problem GW but just to make sure we are all on the same page just imagine if it had been Frankel rather than Nathaniel. Not only inbreeding to Sadler's Wells but inbreeding to Danehill too. I couldn't see that being a good thing but who knows? Reply
- amadán»Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:36 am
My observation on these closely inbred horses: 2x2; 2x3; 3x3. is that the pedigree might make more sense if you look at the 4th, 5th, 6th generations for "support" horses that add quality to the close duplication in the first three generations.
A feature of close inbreeding is it takes up a big percentage of the pedigree, and reduces the inbreeding possibilities in the 4th, 5th, 6th generations. A 2x2 inbreeding is 1/2 of the pedigree, a 2x3 takes 3/8 of the pedigree.
Enable: "support" horses Hail To Reason 5x; Nearco 6x; Nearctic 5x; Native Dancer 6x; Lalun x6; Northern Dancer x6
Mutamakina: "support" horses Hail To Reason 5x; Nearco 6x; Nearctic 5x; Native Dancer 6x; Northern Dancer x4; Natalma x5.
We Are Ninety: "support" horses Native Dancer 5x5 (in the Raise A Native duplication); Northern Dancer 5x; Special 5x; Lalun x6.
I use the term "support" for a horse not in the inbreeding duplication, but elsewhere in the pedigree, usually the sire or dam of the duplicated horse.
What might be important is the number of different support horses, not the number of support horses. Reply
- TOPOFTHEHILL»Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:50 pm
Amadan there may well be something in that theory but I have looked at a couple of other horses with similar close up duplication (not Nathaniel) they too have substantial 'support' but have been spectacularly moderate runners. What may be more interesting is to look at the individual as a 'type' and see if there is some/any/none/ a little of the inbred horse in them. You wouldn't for example suggest there was a lot of Sadler's Wells in Enable. I couldn't say much about Mutamakina as I have never seen her. Reply
- TOPOFTHEHILL»Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:54 pm
One thing they did have in common was a long racing career and they got better as they got older up to a point. I think Enable stayed in training a season too long. Reply
- TOPOFTHEHILL»Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:43 am
Amadan there is a filly I am hoping to get involved with when she enters stud, she is inbred to Sadler's Wells and Urban Sea and she has a lot of 'support' lines in her pedigree. Sadly she is not very good but I suspect there may be a bit of money to make with her for a couple of years. I have sort of worked out a possible breeding program for her but it is going to be a struggle to get her into the stallions that might just get her going. You might think with that pedigree some buyers are going to take a chance and if we can get her where we want we can build up a nice narrative around the foal(s). Reply
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