IRISH BLOODSTOCK FORUMS :: View topic - What about some pay when you sell deals?

Little Man»Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:30 am
I dont get the drift what you are on about at all. Whats ffr? Reply

Reference Point»Sat Oct 03, 2020 10:19 am
filly free return Reply

Serendipity»Sun Oct 04, 2020 15:05 pm
If you need any of that I suggest you stop breeding. Reply

Villicious»Sun Oct 04, 2020 17:58 pm
Wow, sweep that statement Serendipity! If a breeder is in a bit of a fix right now and one of these deals could make a difference then I think it would take a particularly hard heart to say pack it all in instead. Sure they are not to be treated without a certain degree of suspicion but Covid is getting all sorts of businesss in a pickle and looking for a way through is on a lot of people’s mind right now. Can you not envisage a scenario where a small breeder may be in a spot of bother through no fault of there own? Because I can. Reply

Reference Point»Sun Oct 04, 2020 18:15 pm
Well Serendipidy I don't know what to say to that without being rude so I won't say anything. Reply

El Gran Senor»Sun Oct 04, 2020 18:59 pm
I think Serendipity has a point RP. Just look at the clearance rates at the recent and the upcoming Sales. There are way too many racehorses being bred and the demand is just not there for the vast majority of the lower-end horses. In any business if you are producing a product for a market where there aren’t enough buyers then unless you are confident that you are going to produce a superior product you need to expect the worse and don’t expect, in this case, the Studs to share your losses. After all, if you have a good Sale, you’re unlikely to offer the Stud a share of your profit? If you’re breeding to sell then you’ve got to be more selective about which mares you are going to breed each season. The reality is that over the last few seasons too many small breeders have shown an alarming lack of business acumen regardless of Covid 19. Accepting the financial hit is their prerogative but what is not morally acceptable is the resulting welfare issues that stem from their decisions. Reply

Reference Point»Sun Oct 04, 2020 19:29 pm
I think Serendipity has a point RP. -- No he doesn't Reply

TOPOFTHEHILL»Sun Oct 04, 2020 19:40 pm
EGS what you say is of course correct or would be correct in a free and open market place for products of universal utility. But racing is not that market place at all. The big studs rely to a large extent on smaller breeders to fill their stallions, they want, even need the number of horses bred to be big to keep the business working, because largely it works mostly for them. They have a bit of a responsibility to the smaller breeder or racing as we know it would simply cease to exist. It would be much smaller and less significant with less money and their share would be less, which they don't want. But covid aside the sport of racing has not been very sustainable for a long time and it needs a lot of investment and development to continue to play even a marginalised role in our society, and frankly without leadership its not going to happen. Its a bit like the Premiership footy clubs helping the lesser grass roots clubs. Why because a) they need them for players and b) they may find themselves there one day. Reply

Reference Point»Sun Oct 04, 2020 20:04 pm
Thanks TOTH, I know you deal largely at the better end but your understanding of the issues at the lower end is appreciated. I wasn't ever looking for charity from stallion keepers rather some ideas of generating business just like the rest of the economy. Small breeders (especially those that race) have taken multiple hits. This years sales are being hit very hard and many breeders will have honoured contracts signed in better times (although I accept studs may well have re negotiated in some cases but things have got even worse since the spring). Prize money has been hit and racing was called off for 2 months. There is a fair chance that even by next summer we won't be back to normal and if stallions are not attractive to breeders why should they use them. I promise that next years sales will be worse not better than this year other than the very top end. In case everyone has their eyes firmly closed the economy is going very south for a few years and even if they do allow spectators next year there will be a lot fewer of them than in recent years. This is getting a lot worse before it gets better (financially) so if you are a breeder and don't think you need to get far more value than you have been then good luck to you. Most of the rest of the world dont think that way at the moment. Reply

TOPOFTHEHILL»Tue Oct 06, 2020 15:24 pm
RP you are right I work mostly at the other end of the market and I have previously explained that in spite of what everyone might think thats not as easy as you would expect. But I started off as a small breeder with really useless mares and tried to have a little bit of success here and there and I was rewarded in part. But I bred many more disappointing horses. I have been involved with more or less every stage of their development so must take the blame when they didn't work out. I just couldn't see how I could do it any longer, it was too expensive and too unrewarding with prize money being so poor. I just gave up on it. It was no longer fun for me. I could probably afford to carry on but you just want to see a bit of return on your investment and the way racing has changed it looked impossible. So I do understand where you are coming from, I really do. I suppose the problem is that today even a moderate mare just costs too much and stallions stand that are not good enough to stand and although there are plenty of real value stallions they are still pretty expensive for a moderate mare. Reply

Gone West»Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:38 am
Only solution I see is all nominations 'sold' on a foal-share deal. Many mares would be refused a cover and that might be a good piece of advice for the breeder with a 'nobody wants' mare to get rather than wait 2 years for the bell to ring. Reply

Reference Point»Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:28 am
I can see your point GW. There are other ways and its up tp the breeder what he breeds. Just because its not commercial it doesn't mean its a bad mating. I think if you don't intend to put it through a sale then you really should be insisting on good deals this year. Reply

Dargent»Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:10 am
The reality out there is all of the above have been available for the the last year or two. The stallion men on most farms have realised the industry has been in a bad place for quite a while now. I have a range of different mares, like most people. I operate on a very limited budget like most normal breeders. I used to be into making mares out of filly’s, but like others have said on here the game is gone to expensive to do that anymore. I believe you have to build up a relationship with the studs at present, they need you as much as we need them. Example This year I have done a foal share to a good stallion with one mare, covered another with a filly free return deal after having a filly foal. Covered 2 by 2 different stallion’s with deals of pay for one nom by October 1st and have a lifetime breeding right. 4 mares covered on the basis of 50% reduced stud fee if filly foal and bought a cover on Buyanom.com for what I thought it was worth with a live foal stands and nurse. Now I’m not that silly to think I’m going to make money on all or any of these, but you have a chance by sharing the risk. As TOTH said some good stallion’s are still available out there at good value it just a matter of finding them and the appropriate mare. Reply

Mr Jones»Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:55 am
Wow Dargent - I am very impressed. Lots of discussion and dealing. Also, I totally agree with you about the stallion studs needing us breeders as much as we need them. Reply