IRISH BLOODSTOCK FORUMS :: View topic - What sire 'cross' appeals to you?

SH»Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:35 am
Hail to Reason X Last Tycoon -this cross has been quite successful in Aus Reply

SH»Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:40 am
Trying to think of NH horses bred on this cross... Canford Cliffs is one Reply

SH»Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:42 am
oops! Just realised you are asking about duplication Reply

Enzed»Tue Jan 29, 2013 14:45 pm
The one that comes readily to mind is 3/4 bros Nureyev & Sadlers Wells (better imo than duplicating one particular sire); talking about the footwear clan, there was one Karaka yearling filly in the catalogue that immediately caught my eagle eye as to 5h footwear inbreeding - Lot 183 by Big Brown (Kentucky Derby winner) o/o Indian Dream (IRE) by Indian Ridge o/o Karri Valley (o/o LISADELL - 5h#). .................. Big Brown's dam MIEN is by NUREYEV (5h#) , her damsire LEAR FAN has Lt STEVENS (5h#) as damsire whilst Mien's bottomline goes back to Her Slipper & Simon Shoes, etc.................. INDIAN DREAM (IRE) was bred by a certain M.V. O'Brien (??? re Magnier's raid on the 5h clan in the Hancock dispersal??) >> by INDIAN RIDGE (Ahonoora's sire LORENZACCIO is 5h# bottomline) and LISADELL (5h#) is a full sister to Nureyev's dam............ just looked up for what she sold for >> et voila, she was withdrawn ........... Reply

Megabucks»Tue Jan 29, 2013 14:51 pm
Agreed. I like the idea S/Wells and Nureyev cross. Either way don't matter - just like it. Reply

Enzed»Tue Jan 29, 2013 18:23 pm
well Megabucks, here's a LIVE one for you a total of FIVE lots of footwear 5h inbreeding a 3yo filly by Henrythenavigator - looks like a good one to follow for the early summer over your way; http://www.pedigreequery.com/jubliant+girl Reply

Mark One»Tue Jan 29, 2013 18:22 pm
I have a passion for INVINCIBLE SPIRIT. It may still be too soon to in-breed to him but it is a cross I eagerly await to study. Reply

Red Light»Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:39 am
Forget about crossing a stallion say 3 x 3 - it is too far back anyway! Concentrate on the selected sire and sire of dam. Make sure both of them raced over the same distance - breed like to like and you can be pretty sure you will breed a like animal. Reply

TOPOFTHEHILL»Thu Jan 31, 2013 13:02 pm
Paddy that is a very difficult question to answer, and for several reasons. To answer in any meaningful way is to open up just about everything you know, and expose all the things you don’t know to your peers. We all have profound beliefs and prejudices and all of us have based our knowledge set on the parts that suit or pander to these personal beliefs and prejudices. That said I have never particularly shied away from giving an opinion (for what its worth), and I will have a go. I don’t think there is a sire cross that you can use which will guarantee you success. I think there are good stallions and bad stallions and some in between. There are good mares and bad mares and some in between. As a breeder we are trying to match the best possible stallion that we can afford to use with the mares we have. The result might well be a foal that is 2 x 4 to a particular stallion. I don’t know just how important that is. But I suspect that its not as important as selecting a good stallion or perhaps more importantly avoiding the poor ones. Without doubt there are crosses which are more successful than others. But to look at a pedigree and try to establish exactly why this is in terms of the position of a duplication in the pedigree is questionable. I think the best way forward for any breeder is to get to know in every minute detail the up to date condition of your mare’s pedigree. It all starts from there. Know what is working from mares bred along similar lines. What is working from mares in the immediate family. When you get a really full data set on what is possible from similarly bred mares you can then try to ‘craft’ a pedigree with the background that has worked before. You will automatically avoid the crosses that don’t work and this gives you a very slight uplift in the probability of breeding a nice horse that can turn a profit. There are slight differences if you are breeding to sell or breeding to race but unless you are just breeding purely for selling and plan to rotate mares every 2 or 3 years the object must always be to breed winners. Winners give value to your mares and to your breeding operation as a whole so it is very important. To return to the specific question the foals pedigree will almost certainly have some duplication in it. It will either be close up (inbred) or further back (line bred). It’s a generalisation of course but sprinters normally have close up inbreeding whereas the staying horses most usually have a build up of certain lines further back. So Red Light is quite right to dismiss the process of selecting a stallion on the basis of it providing a 2 x 4 cross of some horse or another. A pedigree will involve all sorts of relationships and while it is impossible to say ¾ brothers are stronger than ½ brothers or brother and sister a study of recent champions will indicate that some crosses and patterns are better than others but it is quite a pointless exercise developing a particular pedigree pattern if the sire you are compelled to use in order to get the 2 x 4 cross is a useless stallion that gets few winners. I think there may even be times where because there are no stallions with much of what your mare ‘needs’ it might be better to outcross to a proper sire rather than use a lesser stallion to construct what on paper looks to be a ‘perfect’ pedigree. I have also to agree with Red Light that it is very difficult to move too far away from a mares aptitude. If she was a galloping stayer there is rarely much of a premium sending her to a sprint sire to ‘inject some speed’. Reply

Valerie»Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:19 am
Your approach is very sound. I think overall a general useful rule of thumb would be - as Red Light says - breed like to like. Reply

TOPOFTHEHILL»Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:16 am
Thanks Valerie the only problem is I have about 100 reasons for deviating from the basic plan and will find another 50 or so if none of the first 100 apply. Reply