IRISH BLOODSTOCK FORUMS :: View topic

TOPOFTHEHILL»Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:39 am
He didn't do anything like enough for me, RP ! He might have been campaigned differently and run less often and he wouldn't look so average. Being a Scat Daddy is obviously no hardship and his pedigree is just full of top class runners and producers. Its awesome, but at the end of the day he was a modest G3 winner at 2yo. Reply

Mr Jones»Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:58 am
What fee are we talking about? Reply

Gone West»Tue Sep 15, 2020 20:41 pm
He is going to stand his first season 2021 at Whitsbury Manor Stud in UK. No fee announced yet as far as I know. Not my type on performance or pedigree I'm afraid. Reply

Villicious»Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:54 pm
Terrible pedigree I’m afraid. Just 2 group 3 and 1 listed winner under the first 4 dams. That’s a very long shot for a throwback to ancient talent wherever it is once was. Reply

Reference Point»Tue Sep 15, 2020 19:46 pm
His dam is inbred to Unbridled who himself is inbred to Aspidistra. That's a good family that includes Great Above who sired Holy Bull. Any merit there? He himself is also inbred 5x5 to Narrate who's 4th dam is Feola and that's a great family. Narrate related to Round Table, Tale of the Cat etc. Also the extended family of Highclere, Best In Show etc. Any merit in that ? Narrate's dam by the way is by Nijinsky and he also inbred 4x5 to Nijinsky himself. Thats a lot of Nijinsky. Any merit. Interesting pedigree I think.---I bet there's more! Reply

TOPOFTHEHILL»Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:40 am
As Gone West posted he is standing at Whitsbury and they don't tend to over price their newbies. Its a good stud and a bit different from a lot as its a long way from the major stallion studs. They have a strong local clientele and they need to look after them, they know what they want and try to give them a chance. There is merit all through the pedigree RP, I didn't even look at the dam line and that might put a load of people off but I just looked at the pedigree and its full of 'big' horses. Can you get too much Nijinsky and remember the close family ties of Storm Bird with Nijinsky. Its all a lot too far back to be negative but to have layers of class back in a pedigree can only be a good thing. Of course you are going to need something closer up to make him work and it shouldn't be too difficult. All that said WAS HE GOOD ENOUGH? Reply

Reference Point»Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:58 am
Personally i don't think he was TOTH but I do find his pedigree interesting. If he was a G1 winning mile at 3 rated 125 is his pedigree a positive or negative. I know he is not but we are all learning here and it would be good for me to understand it a bit more. Reply

Valerie»Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:16 am
As TOTH says, the Stud where he will stand is fairly isolated from other competition and as a result perhaps his success or not will depend on the quality and suitability of the local mares he will cover. Reply

Reference Point»Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:33 am
I have to be honest and say I am not a big fan. I don't think they have any better mares available to them than other small studs. I feel he will have to make his own success if it is to happen. Reply

Valerie»Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:42 am
Yes but my point is that even if he has all the right potential to be a successful sire it just wont happen if the mares he covers are unsuitable. On the other hand, maybe the mares are suitable and he is a success . What I am saying is, it could all depend on the local mares and not on his own credentials. Reply

Reference Point»Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:16 am
I know what you are saying Valerie and you are probably right. I just don't see why the demographic of mares would be different in that area to any other. It certainly won't be anything Whitsbury have control over unless of course they have identified areas of his pedigree that they think they have mares that will have compatibilities to them. Reply

TOPOFTHEHILL»Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:55 pm
RP and Valerie, my very superficial analysis of his pedigree is that it is going to pick up with mares from a whole load of backgrounds, its what I call mass affinity. He is not going to fail because of pedigree. I am sure Whitsbury have a handle on their clients mares but I don't think they use it that way, Its a bit of a double edged sword they are a bit out of the way, its a full day in the lorry for a Newmarket mare there and back. But it is an astonishingly affluent area with some very big and successful studs quite nearby and its real stud land. Good rolling country over chalk downs and being just about as far south as you can get on the mainland it is climatically favoured. They look after it well and it really is a good place to rear horses. I would imagine their local mare population would be very cosmopolitan and they have stood some good stallions which their clients will have in their bloodlines. What I like about his pedigree is the concentration of class. I like to see Fappiano and he has him x2. I like the fact that he is by Scat Daddy who is an interesting introduction to our national bloodlines. I like the Storm Bird and Nijinsky links. I like that he has no Sadler's Wells and No Danehill or even any sons of Danzig (a Daughter). RP you are right if he had been a G1 7 or 8 furlong winner he would be at Coolmore and they wouldn't have looked twice at Wootton Basset. Reply

Reference Point»Wed Sep 16, 2020 14:04 pm
Mass affinity, that's what I was trying to get at. I am defiantly not trying to promote him (I wouldn't use him) but I did see him at Newmarket as a 2yo and he certainly impressed me as I thought his physicals pointed to a 3/4yo. (A bit like those FITS 2yo's last year which didn't go on) Now he didn't turn out and that's the fact but if he didn't turn out because of some injury or because he was pushed too hard as a 2yo then he may well do a good job at Whitsbury. I will be watching him, in particular amt offspring with the affinities we have mentioned. Reply

Villicious»Wed Sep 16, 2020 16:20 pm
In terms of UK studs Whitsbury are streets ahead in the speed commercial game. They have plenty of mares and while they are not all gilt edged they have bred a lot of useful types by their stallions. I use them a lot and whilst the Irish are ahead in that game generally, they compete well. As TOTH says it’s a lovely stud on good land and whilst it is a hike from Newmarket people will make the effort nowadays. Most of the non Newmarket studs are very well situated to drop down the A34. Reply

Reference Point»Wed Sep 16, 2020 18:53 pm
I understand that Villy. I am not knocking them in the slightest, just not that impressed by them. The quality of stallion they have brought in since Showcasing is ok but they are clearly not aiming that high. Possibly the market isn't there for them and it is key to stay in business. In the end for me if you take Showcasing out of the picture they are not any better than a lot of smaller studs. I thought when Showcasing hit £55k they may look to recruit something a little better than Sergei. There again they are not doing that great with him at the moment. Reply

Martin X»Wed Sep 16, 2020 20:47 pm
But perhaps they know that the local mares made SHOWCASING and those same mares will now make SERGEI ! Reply

Reference Point»Wed Sep 16, 2020 21:14 pm
You may well be right Martin. Lets hope so. Reply

TOPOFTHEHILL»Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:08 am
Thats right Martin but is he good enough, or is it a case of trying to make a silk purse out of a pigs ear. Ask me again in 5 or 6 years. Reply

Reference Point»Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:46 am
I may have sounded a little critical of W in my previous posts but I really am not. It's just an observation. As far as SP is concerned you could argue is form is as good as S's was. There isn't much in it anyway so you could be right Martin. Reply

Irish Paddy»Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:28 am
I also agree with Martin X on this. Location in the past, was a huge influence on the success and popularity of a stallion. In the days before Motorways etc.. breeders send their mares to whatever stood close by. Often, the only pedigree consideration was to avoid close inbreeding - nothing else mattered with the exception perhaps of size. But anyway, the stallion studs in those days had a handful selection of sires so size was not a problem! As an example - here in Ireland - take Ballykisteen Stud in Tipperary. I would say the same breeders in the locality went with their mares there, year on year. And those breeders were true horsepeople too, they reared their stock to the highest standard and you can take your pick was it the stallion made them successful or was it their mares and rearing that was the key to making the stallion a success? Nowadays, with travel distance not a problem, breeders have a far greater choice to make a mess of it all! Reply

TOPOFTHEHILL»Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:42 am
I think there is still a significant influence but agree it is subtle. It would be much less likely that a Newmarket mare would go to Whitsbury, than a Whitsbury mare going to Newmarket. You would need a really good reason to travel a mare to Hampshire from Suffolk M11, M25, M3 it is a horrible enough journey in the car. Now if you have a mare that suited SP and you were local to Whitsbury why would you drive to Newmarket. Its a bit the same with Tweenhills. And may I say that both studs are very accommodating with cover times its just another skill set that have to learn to stay in business. Reply

TOPOFTHEHILL»Sun Sep 20, 2020 16:40 pm
RP a really smart son of Showcasing wins the Mill Reef G2 Saturday. What a nice looking horse he was too as you say Showcasing can get a really good looker. Full sibling in the Book 1 sale too. Reply

Reference Point»Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:21 am
Thanks TOTH. I was going to post that this morning and say if you post a fact often enough it will get proved wrong!! Well done Showcasing. Reply

Villicious»Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:08 am
My theory for what it is worth! Sprint sires are an inconsistent bunch like their offspring. When they start well they get better mares and by better we mean mares that stay further and have more class. Some can use that -Pivotal, Oasis say usefully without any dip in their form but out and out speed merchants like Showcasing are not seen to their best advantage with stouter mares. I think ‘better’ mares do improve a stallions results - famously Galileo and Danehill upped their games the better their mares got, but if those mares don’t suit a horse then he will struggle to make any progress and he might become more inconsistent at best.
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Reference Point»Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:12 am
Just looked at his pedigree TOTH and I have always lked the idea Zafonic with Medicean in a pedigree. Also in this pedigree Drumalis in Dutch Arts pedigree is from Showcasings family. Is any of this relevant. Reply