IRISH BLOODSTOCK FORUMS :: View topic

Mark One»Sat Jul 20, 2019 17:44 pm
It will be interesting to see what they come up with but nothing will surprise me. Reply

Martin X»Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:03 am
Personally, I think a sellers are perfectly entitled to bid on their sale lots and perhaps it is time for 'reserves' to be scrapped. Reply

Martin X»Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:05 am
might I add, that is just one issue - I am perfectly aware the debate is far more serious and no doubt some terrible - and sometimes quite obvious to many - terrible 'fraudulent deals' are going on. Reply

Reference Point»Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:52 am
A small number of powerful buyers in any market will create bad practices. Reply

TOPOFTHEHILL»Mon Jul 22, 2019 13:54 pm
I suspect a lot of home truths will be exposed and it will look horrible from the outside and do nothing to enhance the reputation of the sport. Huge damage will be done and little will change. Reply

Reference Point»Mon Jul 22, 2019 18:31 pm
I don't think anyone outside the sport gives a monkeys. If you want to see corruption in livestock markets you should look at the way the big supermarket buyers behave. Reply

TOPOFTHEHILL»Tue Jul 23, 2019 19:47 pm
Not so sure I agree with you RP. There have always been a significant group of people outside the sport with an interest in shutting down racing. I don't understand their motives but suspect it a bit of old fashioned class envy. Racing has been the pastime of the rich and anything they can do to impact on that enjoyment appears to be OK. Now they have historically attacked the sport on grounds relating to animal welfare, and frankly they have had only very minor success but there has been a very subtle but significant change of tactic recently which is gaining political momentum. It is the effects on social cohesion and domestic life of uncontrolled betting. The victory over FOBT was a major hit and they now quite clearly have a lot of political support. Of course every hit that the betting industry takes hits racing and I believe that we are approaching a very critical point which could be very dangerous for everyone involved in the sport. In an attempt to head off this move the BHA will do everything to try to clean up bits of activity that can be shown to create a negative viewpoint. It will be the Whip! the frankly fraudulent activity at the sales, medication, export conditions and travel activity in fact they have a really difficult job to do and I doubt if they are up to it. They will in almost every project come up against fierce hostile argument from sectors of the racing fraternity which itself will only highlight the shortcomings. Reply

Bono 2U»Tue Jul 23, 2019 16:38 pm
Yes RP and racing is a perfect example of a business being controlled by very few people. Reply

Villicious»Tue Jul 23, 2019 20:02 pm
I am but a minnow in the business and I always try to heed my mother's refrain 'do unto others' etc. I play the game straight and I have nowhere to hide when decent people aren't attracted to my stock. When I am fighting off an Irish buyer who is treating me as if I am mad, stupid, belligerent or all three because I won't cut a fraudulent deal it would be a great help if there was some sort of guideline or or bullet point I could throw back to give me a bit of support. Whether the upcoming report lends that sort of crutch I don't know. TOTH is quite right that as a society we are finding ourselves more and more at the behest of the extremists who know how to throw out a sound bite to great effect. They don't have the facts to back it up but that simply doesn't matter right now. Lo, look what pond life walks into no.10 tomorrow Reply

TOPOFTHEHILL»Tue Jul 23, 2019 20:13 pm
But you can sleep at night. The sales companies should deal with these people and I suspect that this is what will be proposed. The penalties should be severe and life changing so that descent honest people can do good business and make a descent living doing it the right way. Respect to you, I know it doesn't pay the bills but you know where I am coming from, and it is truly sincere. Reply

Villicious»Tue Jul 23, 2019 21:15 pm
Thank you, TOTH. When the sales companies profit from inflated prices it will require a particularly concerted compromise from them to acknowledge the need for change. I am not sure how whistle blowers will feel about entering into that process either. Let us see what this report covers. Or doesn't! Reply

Gone West»Wed Jul 24, 2019 20:40 pm
False Sales - that is sales we know are false but appear as genuine in the results - well those false sales yield a nice fat percentage to the Auctioneers. Are you thinking the Auctioneers will shoot themselves in the foot? Reply

Reference Point»Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:58 am
I think there is a sentiment here that the sales companies and the agents are only villains. Plenty of breeders are happy to deal with agents to sell their stock. They go to any fashionable stallion without any interest in what they produce because they know they can deal with an agent to sell on. It's actually these breeders that create the problem They have no interest in keeping the horses because they know they are no good. These breeders who are found to be paying off agents need to be warned off. The trouble is everyone is a 'commercial' breeder these days and have no interest in racing. Reply

Villicious»Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:24 am
Interesting. I have never approached an agent/trainer to do a deal to offload a horse but I have been pushed by said parties to do such a deal on several occasions so I tend to think the villainy is with the agent. HOWEVER as R.P suggests the vendor is not without culpability here for sure but the pressure can be unpleasant to say the least. If you are in a vulnerable situation as a seller for whatever reason it can be easy to think 'well this is how it works and I am desperate here'. Also the people being defrauded are the buyers clients so surely that buyer has to take the majority of the responsibility for how they are shafted. Obviously the sales companies know what is going on and yes they do benefit but I am not sure what they can do if individual cases don't get highlighted - answers on a postcard please- yet that is certainly quite a useful problem for them to not be able to solve! Reply

Reference Point»Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:20 pm
I think you are wrong Villy. I agree the agents can be bent but the breeders are equally so. I think (just an opinion) that many breeders are only in the game because they know they can do a deal with an agent and sell. If the breeder won't deal then how can the agent carry on his antics. The sales companies don't care as long as they get the commission for the sale and in my opinion (just an opinion) the assessors are in this as well. Which is why horses get into sales they shouldn't. All in all it's the breeders that drive this trade as they are the ones that receive the money from the buyer initially before the divvying out takes place. They are the ones that need to be clamped down on. Of course they play the victim when caught out but they are not. Its the breeder first and foremost. I think there is a law about bribery and receiving moneys from this sort of financial swindling and the breeders should get done the same as the agents. Reply

Villicious»Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:37 pm
I don't think I am wrong RP, but then again I don't think you are either! I think that both parties are guilty for sure but as I say I've been targeted and sometimes quite aggressively yet I have made no overtures in the other direction. So on those occasions the buying agent has most definitely been the guilty party. And I also feel that if the agents were not pretty darn guilty they would surely be handing their illgotten cut straight onto their client instead of defrauding them with abandon. The law tends to look more favourably on the vulnerable nowadays - prostitution, abused say, even though they might have said 'yes' and these practices are much worse in a weak market when the vendor is on the back foot. But I appreciate we do have a chicken and egg situation here! Reply

Reference Point»Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:41 pm
Villy you yourself have done the decent thing and turned them down. Don't make excuses for the crooks that are prepared to rip off buyers. Don't forget these crooks will be getting more than the value of their horse from people who are prepared to spend money in our game and we need them more than crooked breeders. Reply

Reference Point»Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:57 pm
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/horseracing/2375363/Bloodstock-crackdown.html this might be worth a read and the Judge's comments. Get these crooks in front of the courts. Reply

Villicious»Thu Jul 25, 2019 15:58 pm
I think that in most cases the 'rip off' amount over and above the horses actual value goes to the agent I'm afraid. In my experience anyway that has been the scope of the request. Obviously they have to be in collusion with the vendor but as I say there is often considerable pressure on the vendor at a time when they can be vulnerable and I think that's why I load a majority of the blame (what % I don't know) on the buying agent. Well that and the barefaced deceit of shafting their own client who actually engages them, pays them and trusts them to behave honourably. Reply

Little Man»Fri Jul 26, 2019 20:15 pm
This is all shocking - I am reading it closly. So it looks like agents dont buy the horses they like unless they see a big payoff. So when selling a horse now days there is an extra box to tick and that is pay a big slice of the price to an agent. Reply

TOPOFTHEHILL»Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:17 am
When buying for a client I have never knowingly paid over the odds to pay off an agent I will simply not engage with any vendor that suggests this and I conservatively estimate that 30% of the lots on my 'buy' list will be unavailable to me. Reply